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Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.02 22:52:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Julien Derida on 02/03/2005 23:11:20
The first graph is extremely misleading. Blasters and ACs are limited in their operational range mainly by their falloff rather than their optimal. Therefore using long-range ammo actually does little to increase their operational range. The opposite is true with pulse lasers, as they have a high optimal and low falloff. This is why people use long-range ammo on pulses but never on Blasters/ACs. You have chosen a situation to do the comparision that amplifies the pulses greatest strength and completely negates Blasters/ACs greatest strength. It is hence a misleading comparision.
I'd like to see a similar graph comparing Medium Pulse with the other short-range guns with Multi/Antimatter/EMP fitted. It would look far less unbalanced.
N.B. My comments are confined to small weapons.
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.03 03:35:00 -
[2]
So noone else thinks that the first graph is hideously misleading then? 
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:14:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Thanit
Small rails, small howies are as hard to fit as small beams, hevae worse tracking, and no better damage.
What is the problem again ?
Medium Beam Laser I: 16MW 20Tf
150mm Railgun I: 10MW 25Tf
You were saying?
(Remember that PG is far scarcer than CPU on a frig, even an Amarr one)
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.03 11:27:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Thanit
grid comparison between frigs ?
cpu comparison between frigs ?
Taranis: 35 grid/150 CPU
Crusader: 40 grid/ 100 CPU
The Taranis has 50% more CPU than the Crusader.
The Crusader has 14% more grid than the Taranis.
The 150mm Rail uses 25% more CPU than the Medium Beam.
The Medium Beam laser uses 60% more grid than the 150mm Rail.
Can you see the imbalance yet? When Weapons Upgrades kicks in and reduces gun CPU needs even further, the problem becomes even greater.
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.03 13:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: mahhy
Hammer, I'd really like to see the Small Turret graph comparing a Dual Light Pulse 2 with whatever it should be compared against in the Proj and Hybrid areas. I don't know anyone that really uses Med Pulses on interceptors.
Alternatively can you give us the math you used to create those graphs? I don't mind fooling around in Excel 
Seconded. Dual Light Pulse IIs with MF vs Blasters and ACs with short-range ammo would be great too. Of course, the formula would be the best of all  .
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.04 16:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: mahhy
Originally by: fras
I had no idea dual pulses were being changed too. I went on the test server last night and my previous 14km+ range on dual light pulse II with radios has been dropped to 10km. 
10km with Radio? Damnit.
This is why I wanted Hammer to produce graphs using the DLP2. I wonder how good or bad my Crusader will be after this one 
After testing, I've concluded that a Crusader with DLP2 is now a poor mans Taranis. It deals less damage, can't hit as close, and of course still has the old web/scram dilemma. A Taranis will now beat any Crusader foolish enough to fit DLP2 with relative ease.
I've had a small amount of success with Dual Modulated Light Beams. If you run them alongside a couple of Tracking Enhancer IIs you can hit at 14km with UV. This leaves you with pretty favourable damage compared to DLP2 w/Radio pre-nerf. Of course, you can't fit Dual Light Beam IIs without a gimped setup due to CPU issues
I think its ironic that this whole nerf hits Amarr Frigs way harder than the Gankageddons it was designed to counter.
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.04 18:33:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Parallax Error
Julien: Thats because the whole system for balancing turrets in the first place isn't very good.
If as Hammer has suggested that themedium and large turrets are all extrapolated from the small turrets then theres your problem.
The dynamics of frigate to frigate combat is vastly different from Cruiser to Cruiser or BS to BS. Upshot of this, is each size class of weapons should be balanced independantly of the other size classes. What you can't go doing is drawing conclusions from one weapon and assuming the same problems translate perfectly to the smaller 'clones' of that gun.
Megapulse have a huge operating range and that creates a massive unbalance because battleships take a decent amount of time to move through that distance, hence getting hit alot. Medium Pulse aren't unbalanced because there are only 3 ranges in frigate combat anyway and also a frigate can travel the operating range of a medium pulse in very little time. Just for info the 3 ranges of frigates at the moment are <5km >10km and >20km
Thankyou, that's exactly what I've been saying for the last few days. It's a shame hardly anyone else seems to understand .
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.06 22:26:00 -
[8]
The whole nature of this nerf needs rethinking IMO. Lets just look at some indisuputable empirical evidence.
FACT: There have been hundreds of posts on this forum moaning that Megapulse are overpowered.
FACT: Most killboards show Megapulse to be the most used BS weapon, even the most used weapon overall.
FACT: There have been little to no posts moaning that Dual Light Pulse on Crusaders and Maledictions are overpowered.
FACT: Killboards show small lasers to be the third most popular frigate weapon after standard missiles and small blasters.
I think most people would agree that you could use this evidence to suggest that:
- Megapulse are generally accepted as being overpowered.
- Small pulse lasers are NOT generally accepted as being overpowered.
This situation needs to be taken into account when considering how the nerf is accomplished. The current blanket nerf achieves:
1. A reduction in Megapulse useable range from around 60km to 40km. This is inconvenient for Megapulse users, but still leaves the gun very powerful. Arguably still overpowered.
2. A reduction in small pulse useable range from around 15km to 10km. This destroys the niche that small pulse have occupied for rather a while. Without being able to fire outside web range they are simply a lower damage, lower tracking blaster with no ammo.
In other words, as the poster above said, small pulses die whereas Megapulse shrug off the change. Given that Megapulse were generally considered to be unbalanced before, and small pulses were not, this suggests that the blanket nerf is not the best answer to the situation.
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.07 19:52:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Nafri
better adjust medium and heavy beams then let pulses stay at this level
and with EW changes 10km is not the magic line anymore
But that just makes lasers work in exactly the same way as Hybrids/Projectiles with a definate short-range gun and long-range gun. IMO the old situation was far more interesting. The small pulses allowed for more creative piloting because of their flexibility, without being overpowered.
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.08 11:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Nafri
yeah and thats the point where the small pulse lasers where so overpowered
thy had the damage, range and tracking you need to stay just out of webbing range and ******* all small range ceptors which couldnt keep up with your speed
No. It was not overpowered.
Mahhy said that
Crusader w/ 4xDLP + 1 Damage Mod > Taranis w/ 3xIons + 0 Damage Mods
This does not imply that DLP are overpowered, especially when the Taranis has the CPU to fit 2 Damage Mods if it wants to. The Crusader does not have enough CPU to fit 2 Damage Mods.
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.08 18:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: ElectroSister4
Um, plz take optimal range in consideration when discussing frig guns too
Dual light pulse: 7560
Light ion blaster: 1500
This is offset to a pretty large degree by the lower tracking and falloff of the laser, especially when using close-range ammo.
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.03.14 03:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Selim
Amarr ships in general are too easy to fit.
Apart from the frigs, the intys and the majority of the T1 Crusiers...
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.04.04 23:37:00 -
[13]
Our killboard statistics very much support Meridius' argument. The top 6 ships are
1. Taranis
2. Crow
3. Incursus
4. Raptor
5. Wolf
6. Thorax
while the top 10 weapons are
01: Bloodclaw Light Missile I
02: 125mm Railgun II
03: Light Neutron Blaster II
04: 150mm Railgun II
05: 280mm Howitzer Artillery II
06: Medium Pulse Laser II
07: Scourge Heavy Missile I
08: Heavy Pulse Laser II
09: Wrath Cruise Missile I
10: Mega Pulse Laser I
Obviously this differs somewhat from the statistics from the BoB board. We spend a lot less time in BSs than BoB appear to, therefore the Mega Pulse imbalance doesn't show up. These stats do however support the argument that small lasers were NOT overpowered. If they were, we would see them being used far more.
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.04.05 13:38:00 -
[14]
Oh, I realise that Ith. Statistics should always be considered in light of their source. I'd say Sharks have a Gallente bias rather than an bias towards anything small
Anyway, the point still stands. Some people have argued that a nerf to small pulses was justified because of their ability to hit outside of web range for 'blaster-like' damage. This is of course an exaggeration, they don't do anywhere near blaster level damage with radios fitted. If you accept that what they are saying is correct, you would assume that the ship that takes advantage of this fact most, the Crusader, would be hugely popular. In fact, it is not.
In our coalition of almost 100 dedicated PvPers, there are only two regular Crusader Pilots. Myself and Waagaa. You can see that here.
The Crusader in fact turns out to be slightly less used than the Claw. Not compelling evidence for small lasers being overpowered. (N.B. The Malediction is used even less that the Crusader)
I think the 3 Mids issue is actually a red herring for these stats. A lot of people (Sharks at least) put a cap battery in one of those mids in order to run a 20km scrambler. This leaves you with a setup that is very similar to the 2 mid inties, which are also used a reasonable amount. Apart from the Ares obviously, because it's trash ;)
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.04.05 23:34:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Julien Derida on 05/04/2005 23:33:41
Originally by: Meridius
Edited by: Meridius on 05/04/2005 20:11:52
Originally by: Ithildin
Step down a notch, will you, Meridius. I'm not advocating the smaller Amarr ships being nerfed.
I'm quite vocal about this matter since i find the nerf completely retarded, sorry.
This is from the MC killboard. The population is 5x less then bob's yet the same stats are quite evident.
01: Bloodclaw Light Missile I (569)
02: 125mm Railgun II (378)
03: Light Neutron Blaster II (316)
04: 150mm Railgun II (245)
05: 280mm Howitzer Artillery II (210)
06: Medium Pulse Laser II (203)
07: Scourge Heavy Missile I (143)
08: Heavy Pulse Laser II (139)
09: Wrath Cruise Missile I (117)
0: Mega Pulse Laser I (113)
Whats really funny is that the Crusader or Malediction are not even in this list. The Medium Pulse II shows up at the 6th place spot and the ship that uses it most is the Maller, heh.
I took a look to see how many kills the Taranis/Crow/Crusader/Malediction were pulling in for the top 10 pilots using them. Here is what i found:
Taranis: 779 kills
Crow: 682 kills
Crusader: 183 kills
Malediction: 157 kills
Very deserving of a nerf right CCP
Those were the stats I already posted 
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Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
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